Hello and welcome.

My name is Christopher Chandler.

And my name is Chris Schauer and we are
Generally American.

In our podcast, we discuss events,
culture, whatever else we want from a

generally American perspective.

From our differing viewpoints, our goal is
that we can offer others and ourselves

nuanced opinions on fascinating topics
related to the U .S.

We invite you to be part of the discussion
and we hope that you'll stick around to

see where the conversation takes us.

So let's dive in.

And...

We're live.

We finally are.

We needed to be, because I just had to
stop myself around three or four times

from just jumping the gun on talking about
podcast topics a little early.

I guess I'm rusty.

We were recording this a day later, and I
guess that that's one day too much.

Yeah, but today's a special day, but we'll
get into that here in a bit.

So as usual, the weather here has been
pretty terrible.

I was kind of joking with my wife saying
that it's...

pretty similar to England, because
England's, I would say, infamous or famous

for its terrible weather.

And Germany's kind of the same way.

So I'm really looking forward to spring
whenever it'll come around.

It's been pretty rainy and windy.

There's nothing really to do.

And every day I say I'm going to go out
and go for a walk with my wife and my

daughter.

And every day we don't because it's just
so cold and wet.

But yeah, but how about where you are?

Well, at least you have an excuse, so,
excuse me.

For the last three or so weeks, we've been
kind of having like a pseudo spring, like

it's been 40s to 60s a lot during the day.

And I kept telling myself I need to go
take a walk and I only got around to it

when it was actually cold.

In the next few days, I think we have some
snow and some high 20s, high of low 20s

coming.

So usually February is actually like one
of the harsher winter months here, so.

I'm expecting it.

Yeah, I wish we had snow.

We had snow twice within like the past two
or three months and that was really about

it.

It's just rain.

Yeah, so that's the...

Go on.

I was gonna say at least the contractors
working on my place have put up more

siding now, so I have more insulation for
when it actually gets colder.

Do you have curtains now?

I have blinds.

Oh, okay, blinds.

Because it's very...

because I work, you know, I work at home.

and I have a window right next to me and
they put the ladder up on it and nail

siding there and it would be very
uncomfortable if we had to make eye

contact all day.

Which I actually don't know when it gets
really cold because when it was you know

below zero they weren't working.

I wonder what their temperature threshold
is for working because it's gonna be it's

gonna be cold.

Yeah it's definitely not gonna be cold
here.

But anyway that's that's it for the bi
-weekly BIA national weather report if you

will.

But today's a special day.

We kind of touched on it.

It has something to do with your favorite
sport.

Yes, and it wasn't intentional, but it
happened a time out that we're recording

on Super Bowl Sunday.

Yes.

Which I'm very excited.

My Chiefs made it again.

Everybody hates us because we keep showing
up.

And boy, did I see it this year.

Everybody hates us.

Yeah, so like everyone knows, I'm not
really the biggest sports fan, so I'll

kind of let you take the lead for the next
couple of minutes.

So...

So who's playing who?

Because honestly I haven't paid attention
at all.

The only thing I've really seen is
something about Taylor Swift going to or

flying to the Super Bowl.

That's about it.

So it's the San Francisco 49ers versus the
Kansas City Chiefs.

Okay.

They are playing at a neutral site, but
the two conferences that comprise the

league swap who is on paper the home team
every year.

We're the home team this year, so that
just means we get the nicer practice

facilities.

Because usually the host city has a
professional team so the home team just

gets to use their facilities and the away
team gets to use like a college

Facilities, which is what we did last year
Okay, I Don't know if I got that so where

are they playing?

So where is it supposed to be?

Oh, they're playing in Vegas.

Oh, they're playing in big.

Okay, I didn't know that It's actually
very exciting.

So the stadium in Vegas is on the strip or
it's like right off the strip You can walk

there

When you're in some of the hotels and
casinos, there are signs like, Allegiant

Stadium this way.

And you could just...

walk there.

It's pretty, it's pretty great.

And they're probably gonna broadcast it to
like that new...

What do they call it?

Like the Vegas Eye?

Like the new Vegas building they built?

Like the huge globe?

Uh, I don't think they'll let you see it
for free, but they've been putting some

stuff on there all week.

And uh...

The Sphere.

It's called The Sphere.

Oh, The Sphere.

Okay, thank you.

And...

uh, I don't...

I know it's kind of uh, it makes the news
cycles every year but the cheapest tickets

are like $14 ,000.

Live?

God, that's a lot of money.

Well, what happened was they used to be
just like a couple thousand or something

like that and then people scalped them for
that much.

So the league was like, well if you're
gonna pay that much, pay us.

I mean, I guess it's kind of fair, but not
really.

Um, I don't know, I've never been to a
live Super Bowl game, have you?

Oh god no.

I don't think most people can even afford
it.

No, it's not for normal fans and that's
fine.

We're doing the thing here.

Once we're done recording here, I'm gonna
clean the house, get some Costco pizza

ordered.

I have some Kansas City themed cocktail, a
caribou -loo, look it up, it's in a song.

Some other snacks and we're just gonna
have a good time watching the game.

Oh.

Yeah, and so is that free to like to watch
it on TV or do you have to have like a

sports package or something?

Oh, yeah, the it's it's on regular TV They
they want the the big money draw for them

is the commercials the commercial spots
are Insanely expensive so they want as

many eyeballs on those as possible.

Yeah, the commercials are legendary It's
not free here.

Um, believe it or not.

It's actually pretty popular in Germany,
too The problem is it's like it's in the

middle of the night and

I mean, I guess I kind of like football
enough to like maybe watch it, but not at

like three in the morning.

Yeah.

Well, if you're what you're eight hours
ahead, if I remember so kickoff is going

to be at like 30 minutes after midnight.

Yeah.

So it's pretty late, but you have a lot of
diehard fans here in Germany who will, you

know, like take the day off, stay up in
the middle of the night and like watch the

Super Bowl.

And it's not even like Americans, it's
like Germans.

So it is.

Kind of popular here in Germany, which
honestly I was really surprised.

Like when I first moved here, people were
like, oh, like you're from the US, like,

hey, let's talk about football and like,
what's your favorite team?

And like, this is my favorite, like
quarterback and this and that.

And I was like, no, you're talking to the
wrong person.

Like I'm not like that zipper into
football.

You know, at the, at the risk of
stereotyping, I could see how it'd be

appealing to Germans.

It's very, it's very team focused, very
coordination oriented, very discipline

heavy.

I feel like those are qualities.

the German people value.

Oh yeah, definitely.

I mean, it's still kind of niche here.

So, I mean, but you got enough people who
like it to where, you know, that's on the

news and they're like, oh, this team won
and this team lost.

And this was like, you know, the whole
play and this and that.

So, uh, I'll read about in the news
tomorrow and that'll be enough for me.

And maybe I'll watch like some clips on
YouTube.

Well, there's always something, there's
always something weird that happens that

like makes the rounds at least one thing.

even if it's just a halftime show gaff,
but something will happen.

It always does.

Yeah, I guess on a closing note, unless
you have something to add, I have heard

though that the Super Bowl has been
getting, well, not the Super Bowl itself,

but like the events surrounding has been
getting like a lot of like criticism or

flack because a lot of celebrities are
flying in there on like private jets and

you know, like that's bad for the
environment and they've been criticized

for that.

And I believe Taylor Swift is among them
who's...

flying down there.

Isn't her boyfriend playing in?

Yep, Travis Kelce.

I actually heard that not only is she
flying in, which, you know, I don't want

to excuse any billionaires because, you
know.

Is she a billionaire though?

Yeah, she is now.

Okay.

It's not really safe for her to fly on a
normal plane because her fans are insane.

Or there's been, there's just legitimately
been lots of stalkers and death threats

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah with her.

She has a backup plane following her is
something I read this morning.

Now I didn't verify that through a good
source.

It's just something I saw someone mention
this morning when I was waking up.

So, you know, green assault and all that,
but yeah, a lot of, it is a week.

It is an event of excess.

So definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um,

Everyone can bet that we'll talk about it
next Saturday or next Sunday depending on

when we record.

I'll be very happy or very sad.

Yeah, and you might be richer or poorer
depending on if you're gonna bet or not.

I wish.

We have to do...

Montana sports betting has to be done in
person at a kiosk and I don't have that

kind of motivation.

Yeah, that was gonna be my second
question.

Is sport betting even allowed in Montana?

Because I know in some states it's not,
but I don't know which ones.

Yeah, the people who fought to make it
lobbied hard enough so that they had...

total control over it.

So because that's politics.

Yeah, there you have it.

So I guess the Superboard Breeze special,
if you will.

So looking forward to seeing who's going
to win or not.

Because the Kansas City Chiefs is more or
less from my neck of the woods because

everyone knows them from Missouri and
that's like right on the border.

We used to have the Rams, but they left.

So that was kind of like my team growing
up, not my personal team.

I didn't really care one way or another,
but it was a team that...

Everyone really talked about it, other was
the rams or the chiefs.

Some people did both, but you know.

As time goes on.

Anywho, um, that's not actually our topic
for today.

What is our topic?

Our topic is IP, or intellectual property.

Yes, it sounds very boring, but actually I
find it to be very interesting.

It is super interesting, and whether you
think about it or not, you're exposed to

it all the time.

Even if you're just watching...

a movie or a TV show and there's a can of
Coke or a Pepsi or a branded candy bar,

like someone somewhere had to get that
okayed.

Yeah.

And it works really differently across
like country lines, country borders,

especially if you compare like China to
the U .S.

The Chinese perspective on intellectual
property is very different than the

American perspective.

And the German perspective is also
completely different.

And how well that's protected and how well
that's not protected really varies.

But we're not going to talk about like a
thousand different countries.

We're just going to focus more or less on,
I guess, the U .S.

Oh yeah, we'd be here for a while.

And it's interesting because there's...

It's a very gray area.

There's lots of arguments that can be
made.

And it's one of those things, especially
in the age of the internet, for the last

15, I'd say it's really been like the last
15 years or so where it's been a battle

online.

I don't know if you remember, but there
were, at least on the YouTube side of

things, there were always review channels
who'd review music or movies or TV shows.

They were always getting copyright strike
against them for violations of copyright.

And it falls under the fair use terms.

And it ended up being a whole thing for
everyone.

And it seems every few years that kind of
bumps again.

Believe it or not, that happened to me.

I don't want to say I tried to start a
YouTube channel.

I posted like one or two videos just to
have fun with it like everyone does.

And...

I went to some website where it said like
royalty free music, like royalty free

images and whatnot.

And I made a YouTube video and then lo and
behold, I think like two or three days

later, I had like a copyright strike and
it was from some random, I don't know,

like Indian channel that claimed to own
the copyrights to the music that I had

gotten from a website that had told me
that it was copyright free or royalty

free, whatever you want to call it.

Um,

And so I was always really paranoid about
the podcast.

Not that we would get a copyright strike.

I think with podcasts, it's a little
bit...

I would like to believe we're on the safer
side because it's less popular than like

YouTube.

But still, if you get big enough and they
find you, then they'll strike you down.

Well, and we're not really playing any
third party media here.

It's for better or worse, it's just us.

Yeah.

But it's happened a lot and...

Because if I remember right, like...

At the risk of possibly mixing copyright
with trademark, the purpose of a copyright

is so that a consumer wouldn't confuse two
products and lose business to the

original.

Which is something that's been stretched
pretty far these days.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

So the whole reason why we're talking
about this is because something that we

touched on at the very end of the last
episode, which was pal World.

So a game that you have played, which I
have not.

But I've seen tons and tons of reviews
about it and read a couple of articles and

talked to you and other friends.

And the general consensus is that it's,
for lack of better terms, like an

entertaining game.

But that for me is not the most
entertaining or interesting aspect.

The question that everyone asks is, is it
copyright infringement?

Because it's colloquially been referred to
as Pokemon with guns.

And as everyone knows, Pokemon belongs to
Nintendo.

And if you know anything about Nintendo,
they're terribly protective of their own

intellectual property.

Do you remember the ads from, I know this
is like way before when you were born, way

before I was born, but do you remember
some of like the Nintendo ads from the

80s?

Like by seeing them like reruns whatnot?

I think I've seen a few clips of them, but
nothing specific comes to mind.

So this is obviously before our time,
because we were born in the 90s, but back

when Nintendo was really getting into
video games, so like in the 80s,

Um, they, I think they were like the
biggest on the market in the U S and so

what happens is when something becomes
super popular, super well known, it

becomes like generic.

So you're, I'm pretty sure you're, you're
familiar with, with like Q -tips for

example, like cotton swaps for like your
ears.

Yeah.

But Q -tip is, um, it's like a brand, but
because it's so generic, we kind of use

it, you know, like tissue, for example, or
like Kleenex they're interchangeable and.

So it becomes really, really generic.

And what had happened was in the eighties,
because like the people can feel free to

correct me because I can't remember
exactly, but like the Super Nintendo and

like the Famicom and whatnot, because it
was so popular, people just referred to

any gaming console as a Nintendo, which
for me sounds really odd to refer to like

my, I don't know, like my PlayStation as a
Nintendo.

But Nintendo was synonymous with gaming
console.

So anything was a Nintendo.

So like a Sega was a Nintendo.

Like just any like, you know, gaming
console was a Nintendo.

And like, why am I saying this?

Because it's kind of long winded.

To make it really short is Nintendo is
super protective of their copyright law or

their copyright stuff, like their
intellectual property, sorry.

And...

they're really afraid of anything becoming
generic because once it becomes generic,

you can't really protect it anymore.

And so whenever anything gets posted on
YouTube or podcasts or music, like they

strike it down right away.

And that's kind of what's happening like
with pal World at the moment.

Yeah, well, no, not quite.

They did officially launch an
investigation, but they didn't...

The fact that they didn't have the grounds
to basically C &D them, cease and desist

them, right away means...

I mean, it's just different.

Like, the idea is similar, but there's
lots of...

I don't know, it's hard to describe to
someone who hasn't played the game.

It does not at all feel like you're
playing Pokemon.

Like, it feels like you're playing a very
different game with, like, a Pokemon -ish

paint job.

And even then, like, it has its own quirks
and...

and things.

It's one of those...

You have to play it and then it would, I
think, feel pretty obvious that it's a

separate product.

The developers of the game have basically
said that they're not particularly

artistic people.

I'm very roughly paraphrasing, but they're
more interested in taking games they like

and mashing them together to make a fun
game.

Like, that was basically their goal.

And there's the DNA of a lot of popular
games in it.

And it's honestly kind of a miracle that
it's fun and not just a...

undisciplined mess of mechanics, but it
works pretty well.

Yeah, you can't really trademark or
copyright the idea of using monsters in a

fighting game, because that in and of
itself is super generic.

So you have like, what is it called?

Like Monster Hunter, then you have
Digimon, then you have Pokemon, and like a

couple other games where, I guess maybe
like Beyblades.

I don't know if you remember that.

Oh, come on.

Do you remember badly?

That's kind of old.

So like using monsters and fighting with
them isn't particularly innovative.

Then you have, I guess, like maybe like
Dragon Quest, but that's not like exactly

the same spoke.

But still, I know that someone made a mod
for the game and they took that down like

right away.

Yeah, and it wasn't just that it was a mod
that added Pokemon to the game, it was a

paid mod.

Oh, it was a paid mod?

I didn't know that.

Yeah, so it's actually interesting.

This has happened a few times.

People will make fan games or in this
case, it a fan game as a mod, but people

will make fan games for Nintendo
properties.

Mm -hmm.

and Nintendo will always come after them
when they find out.

But once something's on the internet, you
know, it's on the internet forever.

Yeah.

And these people always make the mis - Not
always, but a lot of the time people make

the mistake of saying something like, oh,
I'm halfway through developing this - this

Pokemon game, or this Metroid game, or
this Zelda game.

And then Nintendo comes after them with
the lawyers.

Because once you've released it on the
internet, they'll come after you with the

lawyers anyway.

You stop what you're doing, which at that
point is distributing it.

It's already been distributed on the
internet, so it'll keep propagating.

God, they're so fast about it too.

Which is, again, another reason why I'm
pretty sure Pal World is legit, because if

they found any way they could have taken
it down immediately, they would have.

Yeah, that's definitely true.

Speaking of like, fangames, I know that
there's this...

There's this one Pokemon game that someone
was making...

It was like Pokemon nuclear or something
like Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it was Pokemon nuclear where
basically the world had been bombed by

like a nuclear bomb and all the Pokemon
were like nuclear atomic creatures, if you

will.

And yeah, but, you know, let your let your
imagination kind of run with that.

And the guy was super, you know, proud and
excited that he had actually produced it,

you know, that he was finally done.

And then I think like three days later, he
got a cease and desist letter from

Nintendo.

I bet it's still out there somewhere.

Yeah, probably.

If he released it, it should be.

But yeah, so I mean, I'm not part of the
modding community.

I don't know if you are.

But I've gotten some copies, you know,
I've bought some games off the Internet

where I thought that they were legit and
it was just like a bootleg and someone had

kind of changed the ROM file on it, which
is always kind of funny.

Oh my god.

Kind of annoying.

I've I've accidentally bought a bootleg.

uh, Blu -ray before, or was it DVD?

So there was a, um, there's a basketball
anime, uh, Kuroko no Basuke, that I really

enjoy.

And this was probably like, five, six
years ago, so I would, more ignorant than

I am now.

And I had heard the movie basically caps
off the whole series.

It's like the real ending.

And I could, it wasn't streaming at the
time, or at least I didn't think it was.

So I was looking for it, like, oh, I'll
just buy it.

And all the Blu -rays are like 60, $70,
something like that.

Like way more than I'm willing to pay.

And I was just a cook back then, not
making good money anyway.

So it didn't really seem responsible.

And then I found one that was like 20, 30
bucks.

I'm like, oh, that's reasonable.

Like I'll pay that.

It came in and it was like a super bootleg
version.

It was watchable, but the subtitles were
so awkward.

I remember watching it with a work friend
and we were just when we realized what

happened.

I mean we watched it, but it was just so
funny.

Yeah, that's an it.

I actually want to stick with that for a
second.

So this is kind of going off on a tangent
and we'll come back to it because I want

to talk about something else.

But like bootlegs in general.

So I guess for those who don't know, like,
you know, a bootleg is basically an

illegal copy of something.

And I'm pretty sure that can be applied
to...

Any like any media so like video games
movies TV shows series stuff like that And

basically it's the result of you know
piracy and so then there's like the age

-old question that I would like your
opinion on it is Is it okay to?

Pirate something if you can't access it.

So a lot of people 100 % you think so?

Yeah

So if it's like, so like to give more
context to that.

So for example, if you want to, I don't
know, watch your favorite, I don't know, K

-dramas, whatever, and there's no way for
you to legally stream or buy it, but you

can get like, you know, a bootleg copy of
it or pirate it or torrent it or whatever.

Do you think that's permissible?

All day.

I mean, it's...

I don't know if you're familiar with the
concept of lost media.

No, not at all.

So the concept of lost media is basically
just that.

It's media that nobody has anymore.

Nobody can find it, nobody has a copy of
it.

I think it's something like 85 or 90 % of
movies that are like 100 plus years old,

or you know, around that time period,
they're lost media, nobody has them

anymore.

And that's just, you know, that's art and
culture lost to history.

And music, film these days is good with
it, music is good with it.

TV shows can be spotty.

Video games are notoriously horrible about
it.

Because there's always a new hardware
generation and no backwards compatibility

and there's intellectual property rights
that change hands so things can't be sold

anymore.

So, I mean, there are things...

There's a game that released...

It either released early this year or late
last year.

That's already lost media.

Oh, wow.

And that was basically because the game
was a scam and the whole company fell

apart and they ran with the money.

But it happens.

There is culturally significant games that
you just can't legally buy anymore.

You can get them off the Internet for
free.

Yeah, that's what a lot of people say
about like Nintendo video games basically,

because they're incredibly popular.

And so people say like, well, what's the
harm?

You know, it's like, you know, it's some
Game Boy game from like 1994, like who

cares?

But Nintendo cares.

So you can't, technically you can still
buy it through their shop for like

exorbitant prices, you know, like madly
expensive.

Yeah.

They put a full release price on a game
that's like 20 years old or more.

Yeah.

I think that's criminal.

I mean, they're well within their right to
do so, but I think it's criminal.

and people are like, well, you know, the
video game's been out for like 40 years,

you can't really buy it anymore, so who
cares?

But that's a whole other topic for a whole
other day.

What I think is really interesting, so we
talked about fair use and copyright, so I

guess besides Nintendo, the biggest player
in the room would be Disney.

So obviously everyone knows what I would
like to hope so, that Nintendo is...

Japanese company, whereas Disney is an
American based company.

And they're also fiercely protective of
their intellectual property.

They do not really allow for any legal
room whatsoever, with respect to any of

their works, which I think to be very
hypocritical, because most of their, I

would say most of their base is built upon

you know, stuff that's in the free domain,
you know, stuff that's basically, uh, like

free for everyone.

And they take that, repurpose it, and then
they say it's mine.

And, uh, I don't know how to square the
two.

Yeah, I mean...

hypocrisy for one and you know it's a very
old company the people who have been

making decisions along the way has changed
several times it's tough and you know

they've Disney has been at the spearhead
of expanding copyright law in the United

States yes for a very long time that leash
is finally running out Steamboat Willie

version Steamboat Willie specific version
of Mickey Mouse

is now in the public domain and so people
are doing stuff with that and then of

course what was it like a year ago Winnie
the Pooh entered public domain so there's

like two or three I think there's like two
or three bad Winnie the Pooh horror movies

now Superman I think is coming up in a few
years oh I didn't know that I didn't know

Superman isn't that crazy to think just
anybody can make a Superman movie

The problem is you don't own...

you can do Superman, you know, all the
cast of characters are on a separate

timer.

So if you want to do like General Zod or
Brainiac or something, they're...

You know, I'm not a DC historian, but
they're probably at least a few years

away.

I said a couple seconds ago, I think I
said freedom.

I meant public domain.

So basically where anyone can access it.

Yeah, so that's the tricky part.

So Winnie the Pooh and Steamboat Willie
are now in like public domains.

So anyone can do anything they want with
those characters, but there's a huge like

asterisk on that basically.

So what you can't do is pretend like
you're doing something in the name of the

company.

So you can't like create like a Steamboat
Willie and try to convince people like,

hey, this is being endorsed by Disney.

So you're not allowed to do that.

And I'm definitely not, I don't know if
you are, but I'm definitely not a

copyright lawyer.

So I think you'd be very careful about
that.

But when you mentioned a couple of seconds
ago about Disney being like at the

forefront of like copyright law, can you
expand them on that a little bit?

So I, I'm not an expert on the topic.

I had just known, so, you know,
originally,

Copyright was developed with a relatively
narrow scope.

and Disney, you know, they have all these
iconic characters.

I think they successfully lobbied to get
it expanded two or three times.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's my understanding too.

I think it was like, either, like don't
even quote any of us, but I think it was

at the end of the 90s, like the early
2000s where they did that and they were

successful.

And it was funny because it was

But this thing basically worked, I think,
with other companies to get these laws

passed.

And it was basically like the old adage of
like the enemy of my enemy is my friend

and the enemy being like copyright law.

And so they just got a whole bunch of
companies to really kind of push these

laws through.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I
believe...

Things enter the public domain 70 years
after the creator's death, I believe.

This is within the context of the US.

I don't know how it is like in Germany or
in other countries, but that's, I think,

more or less, I think like the guideline.

But either way, you have to wait a really
long time after the author dies to be able

to use that stuff for...

whatever you please.

But super interesting - didn't know it was
tied to death.

Yeah, it is.

So as long as the person is alive, you
can't really do anything, you know, with

their work.

I guess that makes sense.

But let me double check really quick.

But I'm pretty sure that it's basically
after you die.

But it varies from country to country, so
I know that in most countries it's...

Yeah, so it's either life or it's death,
depending on the place, but usually a

couple decades have to pass after things
have been published.

But...

Yeah, so I'm really interested in seeing
what people are going to produce.

I think it's kind of funny that the things
that most people produced was like horror

movies.

Honestly, I thought they would have gone
like the other direction and produce like

pornography because that's basically the
internet.

I'm sure that's already there.

I mean, I think it's just the low hanging
fruit of taking something childish or that

people have nostalgic memories of and
twisting it like it's...

It's one of the easiest horror tropes you
could do.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think the one that people were
like, what was it called?

Blood and Honey, I think.

Which I'll give you that it is kind of low
hanging fruit.

Yeah, so I found it.

So it is 70 years.

So it's life plus 70 years.

So it's like the life of the author plus
70 years.

What did it used to be?

I don't know.

They changed it in 19...

I think 1978.

I don't have like all of the stats
somewhat like Disney and all the companies

did.

But it's a really long time.

So basically, I think, within the context
of the US, the logic behind it is if you

basically give...

this person, so the creator, so much time
to, you know, live off their creation and

to basically get credit for their work
that after that, it has to go back to, you

know, back to the people.

Because that's kind of how innovation
works, you know?

So like Disney didn't really create a lot
of the stuff that they have, they didn't

actually really create from whole cloth.

They just kind of built upon fairy tales
that already existed.

Most of which were either from France,

from the Scandinavian countries or from
Germany.

You know, so most of the fairy tales that
Disney has are German in origin.

And they didn't create that.

And like those are like obviously in the
public domain, like all the fairy tales.

And so they created their version.

That's the problem is, is if you create
like a new version, then it starts over.

So that's why we said a couple of minutes
ago, it's only for the Steamboat Willie

version.

So...

Disney has probably like 30 versions of
like Mickey Mouse.

Yeah, that's actually kind of put an
interesting thought in my head.

So that means if I wanted to make my own
Steamboat Willie Mickey Mouse movie and

then I make it and then I don't do
anything with it for three years and

somebody makes a sequel to that movie,
then that's copyright infringement.

Yeah, I mean, that's a kind of tricky
question.

I know that a direct sequel, no, nothing
ambiguous about it.

I think if it's an original work, I think
that's OK.

So, like, obviously, for example, like
Tarzan is was I think it I think it's like

an English novel.

I think it's originally from England.

And so the book in of itself, you know,
that's something different.

But if you create like an original work
based on that, then you can protect that.

And so that's basically what Disney did
and Disney does.

So they protect their interpretation.

Now, I don't know how that actually works
in practice if you're not like a multi

-billion company, billion dollar company,
but that's basically how they operate.

And I don't know, I'm really looking
forward to like all these interesting

creations.

I'm not really interested in horror, but
you know, who knows?

I mean, maybe someone will create like a
video game or something that...

is much more interesting than like some
cheap like I don't know 1980s horror

movie.

I think we'll have to give it a few years
to see what really happens because all

these big names are coming up.

Like it would be really interesting to see
what someone would do.

Like we said Superman's coming up and I
don't think Batman's that far behind.

Like imagine if someone made a Batman game
but obviously only Batman.

is available, so they have to basically
write all new villains, all new supporting

characters.

That would be so weird and bizarre to see,
and at that point you should probably do

another character as your focus.

But we'll probably start seeing stuff like
that.

Yeah, definitely.

And this also applies to music as well.

So we've been talking about like, you
know, just like cartoons and whatnot, but

this pretty much applies to anything.

that has been copyrighted.

And by extension, this applies to
trademarks and intellectual property and

all that fun stuff, which is notoriously
difficult.

And I think, to a certain extent, this
conversation could also apply to patents,

although patents aren't necessarily media
in that sense, but patents can expire.

And that's in a completely different
section.

from like copyright law.

So if your patent expires or if you don't
have a patent, well then anyone can, you

know, create anything from what you've
basically done.

I think a most recent case would be fidget
spinners.

I don't know, you remember those?

It's been a while.

I do, I do.

I remember they were a quick flash in the
pan.

Yeah, pretty much.

And so I think there were some lady who
created the fidget spinners.

I don't know if the word create is really
appropriate because it's...

not really that innovative.

But anyway, yeah, so she created it and
she didn't put a patent on it.

And so what happened was everyone stole it
and they made money and she made nothing.

So that's, you know, one of the dangers
behind letting laws lapse or like not

really protecting your assets.

And it's really hard because none of these
things are forever.

So it's not like you can have a patent for
like a thousand years or something.

Like if you don't renew it, you're kind of
out of luck.

basically on that front.

Yeah.

And one thing, you know, I want to talk
about is how we respect intellectual

properties or how people in general will,
because it's very hit and miss.

Because there are people who generally
just don't pay for things.

Yeah.

And it's not going to change.

Like that's just who they are.

There is actually, especially for

for like games, there is a pretty large
piracy community.

And whenever a new game comes out,
everyone kind of, there are different

groups that will work like, oh, we're
gonna crack this game and, you know, get

it released to everyone and we're gonna
work on this one.

It's like their hobby.

And...

It's just fascinating to see, at the risk
of beating a dead horse, I don't know if

you're familiar with this, Gabe Newell
famously said this, I think, like over a

decade ago at this point, where basically
piracy, you know, isn't a security issue

or something like that, it's a service
issue.

You have to make paying for something more
convenient than stealing it.

Which is what we did for a long time.

A lot of people used to pirate a lot of TV
shows.

and nobody wanted to pay for cable, blah
blah blah.

And then Netflix came out, and when
Netflix streaming started, basically

everything was on Netflix.

Any popular movie or TV show, plus some
original series.

And now it's kind of like cable again.

You have to buy all these different
packages, except this time the packages

are different streaming services.

So now people pirate more.

And you know, I do it in my weekly anime
group between...

you know, the four or five of us, we have,
we have Crunchyroll, Hi -Dive, Funimation

just stopped existing, but Amazon Prime,
Hulu, we have all these things and we

still can't watch everything without
pirating.

Like at a certain point, like one person's
not gonna spend $150 on streaming services

just to watch all the stuff they wanna
watch a month.

Yeah, that's definitely true.

So back when I was in, I feel old now, but
you know, back when I was in high school,

like about, you know, 15 years ago, but we
basically downloaded pretty much

everything, you know, from like Torrents
and like LimeWire and all that, pirated

everything.

If you go back further, you know, to the
early 2000s, then you're, you know,

talking about Napster and all those like
peer to peer networks.

And I think it's a very interesting quote
you brought up.

which was it was so easy to just quote
unquote download or like steal a song and

people were like, well, what's the harm?

And I guess it really depends.

You wouldn't download a car.

Yeah.

And a lot of movies have these ads like
you wouldn't download a car or you

wouldn't steal a car or something.

And so I guess the ultimate question is
what's the harm?

and people are losing out on money.

And then it's a question of, well, do you
really care?

And it's a catch -22, I would say.

Because on the one hand, if you care about
your favorite artists, then you should

support them.

And if you steal for them, then that'll
work for a while.

But if everyone does it, eventually
they'll go bankrupt and you'll get no more

new stuff.

That's kind of like the logic.

All right.

But I also feel like culturally, we've all
kind of agreed.

Yeah.

That there needs to be a meeting in the
middle.

Yeah, definitely.

We all agreed to pay for Netflix.

I mean, let's be clear, Netflix, if I
remember right, like Netflix was never

really profitable.

It still isn't, or it's the closest to
profitable.

All these streaming services lose money.

It's crazy.

But we all agreed we are willing to pay
Netflix monthly to watch things.

And then when a couple more.

Some people are like, we're willing to
pick and choose one or two more.

Now that it's like 10 plus streaming
services, a lot of people feel like, all

right, well, this isn't a good deal
anymore.

I'm just gonna go back to paying for
nothing.

Yeah, pretty much.

So a lot of people don't realize, but
Netflix is in the terms of the internet.

Netflix is a really old company.

Netflix has been around since like 95 or
like 96.

So they're pretty old.

I used to use Netflix when...

you had to order DVDs.

Oh, that was that was the best.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you had to order DVDs from Netflix and
they would send you, I think, like up to

five and you had to send it back.

And, you know, they killed Blockbuster.

That's that's been probably dead for like
almost like 20 years.

There's one more.

There's still one left up in Alaska
somewhere.

I think, no, I think that one closed.

It's in Oregon.

Oh, is it?

OK, I don't know.

I think so.

Yeah.

But so.

That was pretty much the beginning of, I
guess, the streaming services, if you

will.

And so, then that evolved into a digital
form.

And so there was this period where Netflix
was pretty much the only kid on the block.

They were pretty much the only ones really
doing streaming services and doing it

well.

And then everyone found, oh my God, this
is a terrific way to make money.

And then everyone just started getting on,
you know.

you know, on the bandwagon, and now you
have like 50 different services and you

can't find anything anymore because it's
so split up.

For a while, you could actually find
really good stuff on Netflix.

Like all the Star Wars movies were on
there, like the original ones, the best

ones.

Yeah, well I remember if there was
something you wanted to watch, like a

movie, like, I haven't seen this movie in
10 years.

Probably on Netflix.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now it probably isn't.

And I used to watch like movies from like
the 50s and 60s from like France on

Netflix.

I mean, they had everything in the
beginning.

And now it's just pretty much slim
pickings.

I remember the moment I realized how
convenient it was.

Streaming was already on Netflix, but I
didn't really understand to what degree.

It was some summer when I was a kid.

I got really into the sci -fi original
show Eureka.

I don't know if you ever watch it, but
it's basically a town in Oregon where they

do...

The whole town is basically dedicated to
developing super secret science stuff for

the government and wacky stuff happens.

But I remember I would order the DVDs.

I think we were on like a two DVD plan in
our house.

I'd watch them send it back and wait for
more.

And I remember one day I was waiting for
the final seasons to come in.

And for some reason, I was scrolling
Netflix on my Wii.

This was a while ago.

And it was there, the new episodes.

Like, I got on the pre -order list for the
Netflix DVD because they would, like, they

could send it out the day the DVD
released.

And it was available to stream that very
day.

And I was like, oh, they put new stuff on
here.

I didn't know that.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we all got so spoiled.

Yeah, I mean there was a period where
everyone was fine with just paying for the

streaming services and now that's not
really an option anymore because you can't

really find stuff or the artists complain
that they're not making money.

I guess on a closing note, I watched an
interview with Snoop Dogg and he was

talking about how, and I haven't verified
this or anything, but he said he had a

couple million streams on Spotify and that
was only like 20 grand, which you know

isn't a lot in the context of everything.

So it's really hard.

It's a cat and mouse thing.

I think consumers are happy for a while
and then they'll just move on.

But at the end of the day, people don't
really want to pay for anything if they

don't have to.

And I think that's like the biggest thing.

And, you know, like our favorite
celebrities, they're already super rich,

so who cares?

But I think it's the way a lot of people
feel.

And it's hard to get people to pay for
things they don't want to.

Yeah, pretty much.

I do wonder how...

So I pay for YouTube premium, which also
comes with YouTube music.

I am curious how much of that goes to
creators.

Because I know when you pay for YouTube
premium, it basically, a portion of your

monthly payment goes to the creators you
watch based on who you watched and when

and how much.

I wonder how much of that gets passed on
to the music.

and i'm also now picturing a uh...

musical hellscape where it's like other
streaming services were like oh well you

to music has the first three metallica
albums uh...

oh yeah spotify has foreign five nobody
has number six uh...

that's in rights hell and then you get
seven on prime god i hope we never go that

way it yet so i guess i'll finish the
episode the way we started which was with

taylor swift and

Taylor Swift was famously wrote an open
letter to Apple saying that she would not

put her like catalog on Apple Music
because Apple Music gave when it came

back, I think it came out like 2017, 2018
gave everyone like three months for free,

which basically meant that the artists
received nothing for three months.

And she was like, I'm not going to work
for free for three months.

And I don't know if I don't know if her
music is on Apple.

I don't really listen to her, to be
honest, but.

You know, it just goes to show that
people, you know, even if they're multi

-billionaires, they still want to get
paid.

But yeah, so that was my final point.

I don't know if you want to add anything
before we hop out of here.

No, I think we have to draw the line here
or I'm going to keep talking.

All right.

So it was a super interesting
conversation.

Thanks so much, everyone, for listening
and we'll catch you on the next one.

All right.

Bye.

Rude for the Chiefs.

Yeah, I will too.

Bye.

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