Hello and welcome.

My name is Christopher Chandler.

And my name is Chris Schauer.

And we are Generally American.

In our podcast, we discuss events,
culture, whatever else we want from a

Generally American perspective.

From our differing viewpoints, our goal is
that we can offer others and ourselves

nuanced opinions on fascinating topics
related to the U .S.

We invite you to be part of the discussion
and we hope that you'll stick around to

see where the conversation takes us.

So let's dive in.

And welcome back.

Welcome back.

We are recording live.

Yeah.

So, Desarred of what the weather here is.

pretty boring, I would say.

It's been kind of rainy.

Although we've had a couple days where
it's been in like the 70s and 80s.

I think last weekend it was pretty hot.

But spring just started, or not started,
but you know, my allergies, I mean my

spring allergies have started.

So.

but I'm fine.

Definitely.

I usually have like three, four or five
allergy days a year where it's like

unbearable.

And two of them were this week.

Like I thought I was actually sick, but I
was just, I was sneezing so much.

I felt so lightheaded.

I could barely focus at work, which is
always fun.

Always fun.

Yeah.

I had a couple of those days, I think.

last week or week or two ago.

I don't know if I mentioned this in the
podcast.

I did like one of those, what are they
called, like scratch tests basically where

they put something on your back.

yeah.

And they prick you.

I remember you telling me that off the
air.

How miserable was that?

Yeah, they did it on my arms and on my
back and it was, it was terrible.

it was slightly inconvenient because they
put, I think like 10 drops on my arm of

like, I think,

trees, I think a test drop was like water,
then they did like trees, grass, weed, dog

hair, cat hair, and like a couple other
things, and it really started to itch.

It wasn't uncomfortable, it was just
annoying because I could scratch it, so I

had to sit there for like 20 minutes.

I just kind of suffered through it.

But yeah, apparently I'm allergic to some
kind of weed or some kind of tree in the

area, I don't know.

So I have to do like a, I can't remember
what the name is, like they desensitize

you or something or whatever it's called.

Yeah.

So they are, you're going to be getting
allergy shots?

Yeah, something like that.

Okay.

I've done that.

Those are, they work.

Yeah, I hope so.

They work really well.

It takes a while, but it works really
well.

Yeah.

I'll start the treatment in, I think
September when I get back from the U S in

August or in fall.

So.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

So that's pretty much the weather here.

Well, here we're we're in May.

So they say April showers bring May
flowers, but our showers always come in

May.

So we're getting some light rain followed
by some pretty bad wind.

And that makes the pollen go nuts, which
is what killed me.

And other than that, it's been mostly
nice, but a little rainy here and there.

I think we have just like a boring,
cloudy.

not super warm, not super cold week coming
up ahead of us.

I wish we would have that.

I'd like to have just like constant nice
weather.

But my version of nice weather is like in
like the seventies.

Yeah, it's supposed to be like in the
fifties all week.

OK.

That's almost too cold for me.

But yeah, there you have it, the bi
-weekly weather report.

So today is something I kind of picked out
because it's, I guess one of my pet

peeves, I would say, which is true crime.

In particular, true crime podcast, because
I feel like true crime podcasts have

become super popular within the past, I
want to say like five -ish years.

There are a whole bunch of them.

I don't really listen to a lot of True
Crime podcasts.

I used to though.

But you can find True Crime really
everywhere.

You can find it on YouTube, you can find
it on Netflix, a lot of movies.

But I guess maybe we should start off by
defining what True Crime is.

How would you define it?

Well, I would just define it as...

anything discussing.

I don't think you can really limit the
crime, but realistically most true crime

related content is about serial killers or
maybe just like a particular murder just

because it's interesting.

I think you could do like organized crime
or things like that, but the killers are

what tend to bring the eyes.

Honestly, that's actually pretty good.

I didn't think about it that way.

But yeah, I think when we speak with true
crime, a lot of it is generally geared

towards things that are very gruesome in
nature.

I mean, technically, you know, bank
robbery is true crime, but I think for

some people it would be considered kind of
boring because it's not gory enough.

You know, as they say, if it bleeds, it
leads.

The old saying.

So I guess the more gruesome something is,
the more...

interesting as opposed to I guess
fictional crime like Law and Order for

example the first thing that comes to mind
or NCIS or what are the other shows called

like it's not CIA I don't know there's so
many of those detective police procedural

shows those are super popular I used to
watch them a lot when I was growing up I

think I watched so many

episodes of Law and Order.

There's so many different variations.

After a while, it gets kind of boring.

It did for me, because it repeats.

Yeah, and then it got to the point where
it's like, I can't even remember if Law

and Order is the right one.

But it's like Law and Order, Hawaii, Law
and Order, New York, Law and Order, Miami.

And then they'll do like crossover events
where one team goes to another city and

You just pick another city and you got
another show and people will watch it.

Yeah, there are a lot of detective shows.

I kind of view those as like outlets for
people who are interested in true crime.

So I'll see what your opinion is.

My opinion of true crime is I find it to
be a bit, at the very, at the very least,

I find it to be tacky.

And at the very worst, I find it to be
somewhat immoral.

Because when you watch like regular shows,
like regular like detective shows like Law

and Order, NCIS or whatever, there aren't
like actual victims to these crimes, like,

because it's all fictional, it's all made
up.

So there's nothing really happening to
anyone.

Whereas like for true crime, you're
basically re -traumatizing the people.

And so you're like re -traumatizing like
the victims, like the families, like using

that for like profit and gain.

And a lot of this sounds like really
abstract, you know, like who cares?

But if we go back like a couple years, I
don't know if you remember this, I haven't

actually seen it.

But on Netflix, they brought out a Jeffrey
Dahmer documentary.

Did you hear about that?

I think I did.

That's not the one I heard a lot about of,
but I'm pretty sure I did remember hearing

about that.

Yeah.

So like, for those who don't know, Jeffrey
Dahmer was a serial killer, I believe in

the nineties, if I'm

I'm not mistaken.

And they did a documentary about him.

Like there are thousands of documentaries.

The problem is in this case, it re
-traumatized the family of the victims and

they were really upset about the
documentary because a lot of this is like

open to the public.

So it's, I mean, it's public knowledge.

You can do whatever you want with it.

But the families were extremely upset and
distraught because they were reliving it

all over again.

And so it's like kind of digging up like
past wounds and that was like a point of

view I didn't really come to until like a
couple years ago when I really used to

listen to like a lot of true crime.

So I'm kind of torn whenever I watch it
and I try to limit like what I do want of

true crime.

I think there's definitely a level of...

exploitation and taste.

You kind of have to, well, you don't have
to, but I think both of us would prefer to

kind of gauge when we're engaging in true
crime.

So for me, this would have been like,
2020, 2021, somewhere in there.

I was door dashing full time as a job and
I always needed things to listen to.

You burn through music and podcasts and
YouTube.

You burn through it all so quick.

So I decided to dip my toe into a true
crime podcast.

And I got through a few episodes of this
particular one.

And I remember.

The last episode I listened to that I
never finished the two ladies that hosted

it just sounded so excited.

They're like, we have, we have a good one.

And I just remember like, that's weird.

Like that's not.

Like that's it kind of gives me vibes of
like I watch I watch NASCAR for that for

the crashes, you know, I mean, I think
most people have like a morbid fascination

at a crash.

But the people who are like in the stands
like crash, crash, crash, like that's when

it's weird.

And I didn't even mean to bring this full
circle while I was listening to that

episode.

I got in a car accident and told him my
car.

That's right.

I mean, you mentioned the car accident,
but you didn't mention what it led up to.

Yeah.

So it was a fun day.

Yeah.

You used a lot of good words there.

I mean, I definitely think a lot of it is
like morbid fascination, like morbid

curiosity.

And I...

I get it, I mean, this is a broader
problem, I think, with people because if

you look, for example, at the news, people
complain about the news all the time about

how negative it is and how manipulative it
is and this and that.

But if the news were all positive, I don't
think a lot of people would watch it.

You know, more people are drawn to
shootings as opposed to, I don't know,

like a dog show, to put it bluntly.

And I think that's the same for true...

true crime and a lot of these people I
think they forget that these are real

people like behind all of this and so it's
I don't know it feels really weird to get

excited for things like that like I am
interested in like in terms of like

history you know like just general history
because I mean crime is history but once

you get you dig kind of deeper you do
realize that like those are real people.

Sometimes it is for the better.

Like for example, I can't remember who
this was, but there was a YouTuber, I

think this happened a couple of times
because you have like these hobby

detectives, if you will, people who just
like to investigate crime for the pure joy

of it, I guess, for lack of better terms.

And they sometimes look at like old cases
or like cold cases.

And I believe this one YouTuber,

actually found the remains of a husband
and a wife that had veered off the road

and they had driven into a lake and no one
had found them.

They'd been lost for like 23 years or
something, 24 years.

And I think in another case, very similar,
they were also reported as missing, I

think for like eight or 10 years, I can't
remember the exact cases.

And so because of these hobby detectives
who were so interested in true crime,

they solve cases.

So, I mean, that's like the beauty of it,
but I think that's, that would be probably

the minority.

And definitely the best case scenario.

Yeah, it's definitely the best case
scenario is helping solve cases.

I don't think most people actually care
about that.

I just think they care about using other
people's pain for their pleasure, if you

will.

I think I'm being kind of harsh, but
that's just like my honest opinion.

Yeah, I mean, there's there's definitely
an aspect to it of that.

I think another way it can.

be beneficial is every now and again I'll
go on a little bit of a true crime kick.

I'll just have it a second monitor
material while I'm doing something else.

And...

It makes you realize just how scary the
world is.

Because a lot of these cases are just
like.

I can't remember the exact killer this
was, but he would just drive.

He was in Washington state and he would
drive like three hours away to like

Spokane and he would go to the bad side of
Spokane where it was pretty known you

could get prostitutes and he would just
pick up a prostitute and that would be his

next victim.

And I, I don't think I particularly need
the lesson to not go, you know.

become a prostitute, but you know, just
little things like that.

Like this person just picked up
hitchhikers or this person.

would just target people who didn't lock
their houses or, you know, things of that

nature.

Like, don't use some protection of
yourself.

Yeah, I definitely think that's one way of
looking at it as a way to educate people.

Like to look out for like certain signs,
look out for certain behavior, attitudes.

But I think that's more of like a side
effect.

a side effect of like the whole genre as
opposed to like the intention.

Like if you're smart enough, you'll read
that into it basically.

Be like, okay, like, I don't know, don't
get into cars with people you don't know.

Don't go to like random parties, this and
that.

But I would love for true crime to be
educational.

Not in terms of like how to do the crime,
but how to avoid to be a victim.

But unfortunately, I don't think that's
what a lot of people do.

Yeah, I won't lie.

A lot of that.

A lot of the whole victim part is why I.

Don't listen to it for very long at a
time.

Because one, it's sad and two.

It kind of depresses me to think like, you
know, you listen to enough of these and

some of them are just acts of random
violence.

And it's just sad to think about how...

common it is.

Or it's not super common, you know, the
actual, like, serial killer phenomenon,

but...

It's people don't like thinking about how
random the universe is and that a crazy

person could just, you know, kill you for
no logical reason.

We I think the human mind does does not
like thinking like that because it scares

us.

And that's kind of where my head goes
after a while.

I mean, definitely.

I mean, if you do watch a lot of these
true crime documentaries or like listen to

these podcasts, a lot of it does seem very
like it's just gratuitous violence.

Like a lot of it does seem very random and
unfair and unjust.

Which kind of leads me on to my second
point.

Because my first point is the biggest,
which being I think is extremely unethical

to at the very least make.

maybe consuming is a different story, but
definitely making it as an ethical, in my

opinion, unethical.

But the second point is that it kind of
desensitizes you to a lot of these things.

Not in the sense that it would, like if
you watch like a serial killer that you

say like, I'm gonna go out and be a serial
killer, I don't think people operate like

that necessarily.

But I know from my own part, it does make
you seem less sympathetic to these people.

if you listen to it like over and over and
over and over because you stop seeing

these people as people and more as like
characters in a story.

And so it stops being true crime and
starts becoming like fiction.

And I've heard that from a lot of people
and I've heard that for myself too, where

I'll just like listen to these stories and
like, -huh, -huh, -huh, -huh.

And then like after I've been away for a
while and I really like analyze it, I

realize, you know, I don't really feel
anything.

for these stories, even though I should
because they're extremely sad and violent.

Which is why I try to avoid these stories
as much as I can.

But it's really hard.

Like you said, like if you need something
to listen to when you're just cleaning or

working, I mean, these stories are
everywhere.

So it's really hard to avoid.

Yeah, I, and I'll tell you my, I haven't
listened to them in.

a while, but I don't know if you've ever
heard of the explore with us YouTube

channel.

No, I've never heard of it.

I wish they had a better name.

I think I think they used to be.

I mean, it's true crime, so the taste is
debatable, but I think it used to be a

little bit more tasteless and they've
improved since then.

But their whole gimmick that they do.

Is they get a hold of.

police interview footage.

And they'll kind of tell the, you know,
the story of it's, it's basically always a

murder.

They'll tell the story of the murder and
everything that happened, but the bulk of

the video and they're, they're usually
over an hour long is them playing back

the, the police interview and analyzing it
and.

breaking down interview techniques,
breaking down like psychology and body

tells like you can see here the the
detective challenged them and made them

feel uncomfortable and they turned their
body this way which is like a body

language sign that they're uncomfortable
now or you know something like that I I

also have mixed feelings on this and I
don't think I've watched it in over half a

year but

I don't know, does the analytical angle of
that make it any better?

Cause it does feel very technical
sometimes.

Now that you explained, I was like, you
know what, actually I do know that I have

seen like a bunch of random clips on
Facebook.

I do know explore with us.

I don't really watch it though.

It was just the algorithm.

That is a good question.

If you like, what angle you come at it
from, if it's, if you're just like, I'm

not, cause a lot of these true crime
things are very sensational.

They like to like glorify a lot of the
violence or kind of like gloss over it and

just not really care.

If you go at it like from like a technical
angle, maybe it makes it less bad, but at

the end of the day, you're still kind of
opening up wounds.

You're still kind of spreading information
around.

So like you're adding to the pool of
information about this topic, which still

isn't like.

conflict with my first point being that
it's unethical.

I don't know how you get it to be ethical
in that sense.

I guess the reason why I feel like it's
unethical is because I think we said

before, it's exploitation.

So if you could remove that element and
then use it as an opportunity to grow or

learn, I mean, yeah, sure.

I mean, like these things, for example,
are probably super helpful for like

detectives, you know, that, you know, what
to look for and how to operate.

I don't think the majority of people who
watched your crime are detectives though.

Yeah.

I, I, I want your opinion on something.

Sure.

Cause this is, this is an episode they
made that kind of stood out to me.

It's been a while, so I might get a detail
or two wrong, but basically.

If I remember the case correctly, a
teenager basically, he had some sort of

mental snap, mental breakdown out of
nowhere and killed some members of his

family.

And in the interviews, you can see like he
is like,

almost completely shut down, like he's not
a motive, anything like that.

And they did the episode and then near the
end, they actually, they called the guy in

prison and did an interview with him.

And this was something like 10 years after
the fact.

And he was basically saying like, yeah,

It was, you know, I didn't really feel
like I was in control and I definitely had

like a mental episode.

I feel horrible about it.

Definitely shouldn't be let out of here.

Like I'd be horrified if it happened
again.

and I want to say this is the part I'm not
a hundred percent sure of, but I believe

he said something about like,

If you feel like you have issues like
that, you should, like, seek help,

because...

You know, he didn't.

And he just had a mental episode and
killed some people, which he wasn't trying

to use it as an excuse, but he wishes he
did not do that.

So I don't - I don't know, does that -

Where does that land on your radar?

Cause I feel like that's like a mix of
like education, proper like actual

journalism.

Cause you seek someone out for an
interview and it's not like glorifying it

or sensationalizing.

It's more, I would almost consider that
like a cautionary tale.

That I think that's completely, that's a
very good point you bring up.

That's completely different though,
because if you're like a true journalist

going out, doing your

due diligence, doing research, trying to
educate the public because at the end of

the day, I think that's what journalists
are for.

They're for educating people.

And obviously we can't be perfectly
neutral.

That's not possible.

But we should be, we're not journalists,
you and I, we're not journalists, but

journalists should be neutral within
reason.

Their only job is to present the facts as
is.

to the best of their abilities and being
as unbiased and neutral as possible.

With that being said, if they operate in
that manner and they present the facts of

like true crime, murder cases and stuff
like that, I think that's okay because

then it does serve as a way to educate
people.

I mean, because unfortunately there are
things that go bump in the night and you

definitely have to be aware of them.

and you definitely have to know how people
operate.

And it could also help you discover
something about yourself.

You know, like maybe you have these
feelings, maybe you have these tendencies,

and by seeing these stories, by seeing
these documentaries, you can seek help.

I would like to believe that is true, and
I do believe that's true, but most people

doing these True Crime podcasts aren't
journalists, they're just like run -of

-the -mill people, like you and me.

And it's also to a point where...

At what point is that information too
much?

Like, you know, I don't know if you've
heard this, but they've called like the

70s, like the the greatest decade for
serial killers.

Because in the 70s, you know.

People left their doors unlocked.

Kids would just be out alone, unsupervised
all the time.

Just nobody, just people weren't that
afraid in general.

So it was pretty easy for serial killers
to operate.

I feel like we live very different lives
now.

Yeah, definitely.

I think that's a good question.

I think I have a question about that.

In your community, do you feel like people
lock their doors all the time?

Yes.

I have some family that doesn't when
they're expecting people and I don't love

it, but I've decided to stop fighting that
battle.

I can't remember how it was when I was
growing up.

I think it was, it just really depended on
the situation.

Like most of the time we would lock our
doors, but I mean, if on certain days, if

we felt relatively safe, we would leave
the doors unlocked.

Like, I'm going to the gas station.

I'll be back in 20 minutes, 30 minutes.

Like what's going to happen if I leave my
door unlocked for like 20 or 30 minutes?

that's horrifying.

Yeah.

I recently left my garage door open.

when i left the house for like three or
four hours and i was like i came home and

i was like nobody probably went inside but
i hope not about to have to fight someone

i mean i i haven't been robbed

I know here, for example, in Germany, they
lock everything.

So everything's locked down here.

I know that, especially like where I'm
from, like with doorknobs, you can open

the door from both sides in the US.

So like if you close your door, you can
just open it back up from the outside.

Whereas in Germany, you can't.

So you only have a doorknob on the inside
of the door.

So if you shut your door,

and you don't have a key, you can't open
it.

And so that's how like a lot of doors work
here.

So they can only be opened from one side,
which sucks sometimes because if you, if

there's like a strong gust of wind, it'll
shut your door and you'll have to call

like a locksmith.

goody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But according to your German law, that
doesn't count as your door being locked.

because you only pulled it shut.

So you know, you could do like the credit
card trick to where like you put it like

in the door and you can pop the lock open
or like the wedge or whatever it's called.

Cause you didn't actually lock it.

So if you lock your door, you have to
actually use a key.

So if something happens in like, like
someone breaks into your house, for

example, and you didn't actually lock it
with a key, then it's your fault.

So Germans do both, so like they'll shut
and lock the door.

But I think in some parts of the US it
really depends on like where you live.

I think it's more of like a community
feeling.

Like is our community safe?

Like do we feel at ease?

And if so, then I think most people in
that community wouldn't lock their doors.

Does that extend to like the cars though
in your area?

Do people generally lock their cars?

So I remember...

when I was younger, like a teenager, like
if it was the winter, you would

or my dad would like pull up to a gas
station to go inside and like grab a drink

and a snack or something.

And he would leave the truck running and
I'm like, like, aren't you gonna turn it

off?

It's like, no, if someone, he would just
say, if someone comes and tries to steal

it, I'll just run out real quick and get
them.

And like, that doesn't seem super smart,
but I think it's also, there's certain at

the risk of getting too far from our topic
when you're in Northern like snowy States.

in the winter.

There's like certain etiquettes.

Like we're in a modern era of remote
starters.

So when you remote start a car, it stays
locked.

But in the past, and there's still plenty
of them, you need to go outside, put the

key in the ignition, turn it on to warm it
up.

And people would do that.

And I think we all were just kind of on
the same page, like, hey, we're all cold

and miserable.

Don't

Don't steal each other's cars right now.

Yeah.

It's not something I ever hear about.

Yeah, that's a good sentiment.

I know, and this is way off topic, but I
know definitely in some parts of Alaska,

the generally like the cars unlocked or
like running in case like it gets like

really cold, like there's a cold snap or
like a snowstorm.

But yeah, I think definitely, so if we
circle back to our topic, like with the

whole incidents in the 70s, I definitely
think that made a lot of people more

uneasy about like security in the United
States and our attitudes towards crime.

So from like in the 80s, I believe they're
called like super predators.

I don't know if you've heard of the term.

I mean, when I think super predator, I
think like some kind of apex, like animal

kingdom predator.

No, the super predators are.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you can think of it
like that.

But it was like it was like this fear in
like the late 80s and 90s that a lot of

kids were becoming increasingly violent.

And so we developed like a lot harsher
laws in the United States as a result.

Like you've heard of like the three strike
rule.

So that's not necessarily like because of
true crime, but I think a lot of these

true crime shows amplify that fear that
everyone has a potential danger.

And a lot of these shows kind of take
everything out of context, like cultural

context, like temporal context, like when
does this all occur?

like the zeitgeist of like the US at the
time, this and that, and it presents it

like we're just surrounded by, it looks
like criminals and murderers and all this

stuff.

And it feeds into this algorithm of fear.

There's a new term I learned.

It's not actually new, but I mean, it's
new to me.

Like rage farming.

I don't know if you've heard of that term
before.

Yeah.

Like just the idea, like if you if you put
anything on on the Internet to get people

angry, I mean, if they're engaging because
they're happy or they're angry, it doesn't

matter.

Engagement's engagement.

It's all click.

Exactly.

And I think that's one of the reasons why
I don't like true crime is a lot of it is

not necessarily like rage, but like morbid
fascination, morbid curiosity.

And for me, it goes like in the same
direction.

I don't really see like a net positive.

from any of this, except for the point you
pointed out, which is educational, like

journalism.

And even then, that episode I talked
about, I don't think I, I mean, I haven't

listened to their whole catalog, but I've
listened to a chunk of it.

That was the only episode that had
something like that.

Though, to be fair, I don't think most
killers are willing to just take a random

phone call in prison and say, sure, I'll.

I'll give you an interview for your
YouTube show.

I mean, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of
journalists who do that.

One thing I used to love watching and I
still kind of do are like prison

documentaries.

I don't know if that really falls under
true crime per se, according to the

definition that we've been using, but it
definitely kind of goes in that direction

because you, because like basically talk
to the inmates who are like, are in death

row or swimming life or, or whatever their
sentence is.

and they talk about their crimes and they
do it from like a very, like a very

removed and neutral point of view.

Like, yeah, I committed the murder because
I was really mad that my girlfriend was

cheating on me with like my best friend
and blah, blah, blah.

And so then you can kind of get into their
way of thinking, like understanding how

they became like that.

I don't know why I didn't bring up this
point earlier.

That's one of the reasons why I personally
love to...

used to love watching true crime is I'm
fascinated not about the crimes

themselves, but about the fact of how
people can become that.

Like this whole like transformation of
like being just like a regular person and

just becoming, it sounds kind of cliche,
but like, you know, becoming like pure

evil basically.

That transformation is

more interesting to me than like the
crimes themselves.

I don't really actually care about the
crimes.

No, I mean, I would say that the actual
crime part is the worst part.

Mm hmm.

Like I'm there because some of these some
of these I agree just watching like either

the transformation or just some people are
just kind of.

Born mentally, you know, different.

Like you might be a psychopath or
sociopath where they never really had

anything against it, a murder on
principle.

It's just they were one day presented with
a situation where it made sense for them

to do it in their head.

So they did it.

So there wasn't really a whole lot of
change.

But some of these, some true crime goes
into like...

gruesome detail on exactly how things were
done.

And it's like way too much detail.

Like, I get it you're trying to like
hammer home like this is a messed up

person because they this they didn't just
kill their victims they did X, Y and Z to

them.

I get it but.

It's like damn.

Cut it cut it down by at least half.

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, but a lot of it does seem kind
of over the top.

And a lot of it is self -serving.

So I don't really, like I said, I don't
really enjoy watching it anymore.

Although to be completely transparent,
like sometimes I'll catch myself listening

to it because I'll be working and like the
YouTube algorithm is like, just click this

and click this and click this and before
you know it, you know.

you're on like true crime or like a
documentary because the worst thing about

YouTube is if you've watched one video as
everyone knows who's ever been on YouTube

they'll recommend you like 30 videos that
like are somewhat similar and it's like a

rabbit hole you know it goes it goes
deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper

you know you watch one documentary about I
don't know car theft and then you will end

up like with like double homicide.

I mean, they're not that far apart.

They're really not.

So I don't know how you can make true
crime ethical in that sense.

It's really hard.

It's way off topic, but it's like the same
thing with pornography, where a lot of

people feel like it exploits a lot of
people and so it can't be per se ethical.

I don't know if that's true.

I just don't know how you get to the point
where it's okay.

Or you just say like, I don't care, which
is, you know, also a position you can

take.

I know it's a position I hold on a lot of
things, especially politics.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's also people, I don't
know what our, we have such a strange

fascination with killers in general.

Like,

I don't know if you heard this, you
probably did.

So when Ted Bundy was going through his
court cases, he was like super charismatic

and he had a lot of female fans.

Like people were like super attracted to
him.

Do you remember that?

Yeah, I do.

I do.

I do.

I don't know if I want to say remember
this was like in the 70s.

We were not alive, but so that was like a
weird thing, right?

And then they made that Netflix movie in
2019 about him with Zac Efron as Ted

Bundy.

Zac Efron is also super charismatic and
attractive.

And it kind of like.

It was weird because.

He nailed that part, right?

And that was like one of the more messed
up things about Ted Bundy was like he he

was like really playing into it and trying
to like take advantage of it.

But like.

It.

At what point does like nailing that
perfectly, like at what point is that like

super weird and unethical?

That's in general when I think that's a
really good question.

You can actually kind of expand that a
little bit to include figures who are

incredibly distasteful, like historical
figures, people who actually existed and

ask yourself how good is it to portray
them?

as authentically as possible.

So like, for example, like a real example
would be like Hitler.

For like the longest time, it was
incredibly uncomfortable for a lot of

people to display him in movies in like an
ethical way, not sorry, an authentic way,

not ethical, an authentic manner.

And so a lot of people just kind of talk
about him in movies, but not actually

portray him.

And so his portrayal in a lot of movies in
Germany was very limited.

And there was this one movie that was
produced, I think it was 2004.

So it was called Der Untagang, which is
like the downfall.

And it's, I think you know the movie.

It's the famous scene where Hitler is in
like a bunker surrounded by his generals.

It was like a meme in like the early
2000s.

If you remember that, and he starts
screaming.

The 9 -9 -9 -9?

Yeah, yeah.

That's the movie.

And the guy who portrayed Hitler in the
movie, I think he won an Oscar or

something and his performance is really
good.

But it made a lot of people really
uncomfortable because of how good it was.

And so that's the question.

Are you allowed to portray these serial
killers as authentically as possible?

I don't know.

That's a really good question.

I don't know if you want to though.

I mean

It's one of those things, like if you're
going to do it, I'd say do your best.

It's more just should you do it.

But I mean, the whole, I don't know how
aware of this you are, but there's like

definitely a group of people who are just
like serial killer fans.

Like there are people who are just like
sexually attracted to serial killers.

Like that's, that's a thing.

Like that's just a semi -common thing.

You can look it up.

You could find communities.

There are real people who are like, that's
what they like.

And I feel like there might've been an
earlier one, but I feel like Ted Bundy is

like the earliest and most famous one,
like in a modern era.

Yeah, I haven't seen that one.

I'll have to check it after.

I don't want to watch, but I'll have to
check the summary.

By the way, I said the film was nominated
for one Oscar.

I think they said it was nominated.

I'll have to double check.

I'll get back to that on the next episode.

It's still a good company.

Yeah, I mean, it's a good movie, but it
does raise a good question.

I mean, people want authenticity.

People want to be attracted to a story.

I think a lot of things are just better in
fantasy than in real life.

And people are, I think people realize
that later rather than sooner because

people have like this fascination, like
this obsession with a lot of these shows.

But I mean, that's interesting.

Like you said that they're, I think you
said like sexually attracted.

Is that what you used?

There, yeah, there are definitely certain
communities you could find on the

internet.

I have not particularly seeped them out,
but I am aware of them.

So I am definitely aware of them as well.

I mean, you can pretty much find anything
on the internet.

I mean, if you, if you look deep enough,
you'll find.

communities for everyone and everything,
good or bad, and everything beyond that.

And if you go even, go on.

Go ahead, go ahead.

I was just gonna say like the last point
is like, if you go to the dark web, then

you'll find even more, but I personally
haven't been there.

I don't feel like going.

No, well, I feel like that's a good way to
put yourself on a list, but.

Yeah, that's true.

The reason I bring up the whole being
attracted to killers thing is.

I think we have a fascination with killers
and it can manifest in a few different

ways.

I don't know if it's just like watching
somebody spiral out of control or just

watching somebody, you know, ignore the
rules of society and just do whatever they

want or the excitement of watching someone
try and, you know, literally get away with

murder, all these things.

Like, I'm sure there's multiple, something
about it is just.

fascinates a large amount of us.

And I'd be lying if I said that wasn't me
sometimes.

Because it's, it's, it's interesting and
bringing it back to true crime, like a lot

of the science and technical aspects of
it, I think are very interesting.

One of like the first series I listened to
years ago,

had something to do with some rural town.

They found a, like, there was like a
barrel out in the woods and, you know, it

was human remains.

And this was a case that was cold for like
20 or 30 years.

And, you know, the most of it was about
the, you know, how can we figure this out?

It wasn't, very little was about the
actual.

crime itself.

And that's what I thought was interesting.

The technical, the pursuit of it, the...

You know, the...

The chase?

Yeah, well, just, you know, the work of...

the forensics and all that stuff.

But I don't know, the fascination
manifests itself in so many different

ways.

And I'm not a trained psychologist, so I
can't break down the exact reasons.

But it's I think it's just something we're
stuck with as a species.

That's a really good point to end on is
that I think it depends on what angle you

look at true crime from and and like why
you watch it.

So.

For example, there were a lot of shows in
the late 90s, early 2000s that did true

crime and they weren't really focused on
sensationalism but rather on the

forensics.

Because that was new information.

I mean it wasn't super new but it was
gaining popularity like DNA and forensics,

NCIS and all that, CSI.

And people were fascinated about how you
could catch criminals with this new

technology.

But yeah.

With that being said, that's my final
point.

I don't know if you got anything you want
to add to that.

I think I wrapped it up.

Alright, there you have it.

Thanks so much for listening.

Take care, enjoy, and we'll see you all in
the next one.

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